April 22, 2020

Dealing with Anxiety in Traumatic Times

Live Conversation Series – Episode 001

Ayelet has her bachelors degree in psychology and is graduating from NYU with her masters degree in social work. Throughout her decade long battle with anxiety and depression, Ayelet identified and utilized tools to help her deal with these mental health challenges. She is now dedicated to helping others do the same. She hosts a podcast titled “Get Out of Bed, Out of Your Head” and coaches entrepreneurs so they can achieve their goals!

During this 30 minute interview we:
– Identify and discuss chronic trauma and how to deal with it.
– Define Anxiety and Depression and some of their common symptoms
– Review practical ways to combat these challenges personally and how we can help others do the same.

Free Resource

Ayelet has generously offered to share the Anxiety Toolkit she created with my audience. If this topic, video and Ayelet’s insight resonated with you and you want a little extra assistance fill out the form below and I will send along her Tookit right away!

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Video Transcript

Don Mamone (00:56):
Ayelet has her undergraduate degree in psychology. She has her master’s degree in social work. You’re graduating now. Congratulations. Leaving NYU with your master’s degree, which is no easy feat. She’s had a decade long battle with anxiety and depression and other mental health challenges. And basically you’ve identified and utilized tools that you learned through both education and experience, which is amazing. And you now want to, you’re determined to help others with that. So you started a podcast, which is get out of bed out of your head and you’re coaching and you’re basically sort of rising the tide for all these people. Now, before I throw it to you, we’re going to make a disclaimer. We talked about this. We use words like depression and trauma and anxiety somewhat casually. But they are real medical conditions. And if somebody out there is watching this and you’ve been battling this for a long period of time, or if you’re sort of suffering from it more acutely now in these uncertain and traumatic times, then what I really need you to do is talk to a mental health professional so that they can help you. Uh, ow with that, let me give you some context and I’m gonna turn it over to you. Our audience is largely event and hospitality professionals. Uh find it event and hospitality professionals at this point are some of the most giving caring servants at heart type folks. And so right now in these traumatic and uncertain times, conversations I’ve had on zoom calls and in other opportunities to interact, they were sharing with me that there anxious, that they have sort of, something that looks like survivor’s guilt where they haven’t been furloughed or laid off or they have, but they have more savings and they feel like some of these other folks are suffering, substantially more than them. And we talked about productivity, pressure, where they feel like I have to keep doing this when in actuality they’re not inclined or they’re not energized. So all those things are why I’ve invited you here today. Thank you again so much for being willing to share your time, talent and experience with this. Talk about trauma. We’re in a time when trauma is at its height
Ayelet Shipley (03:01):
Oh yeah.
Don Mamone (03:03):
So talk to us about what trauma is and, and your thoughts and experience with it.
Ayelet Shipley (03:09):
Yeah. So trauma is what it’s an, it’s an unusual experience that happens. And our bodies react to it and our bodies react with anxiety and racing, heart in sweats and all of these things. However, what we’re going through right now is chronic trauma. And I explain it. I heard a great analogy once and it’s like you go into the woods and you’d see a bear and your body tells you to fight or flight. And that is like a normal trauma response. However, if the bears coming home every night to you, your body is producing so much adrenaline is overworking itself and you’re having physiological responses to it. And so at a time like this, that’s what we’re going through. This trauma is going on day after day after day. And a lot of times we’re not recognizing it because it’s, it’s happening to everyone. But it doesn’t mean it’s not real. And it doesn’t mean it’s not happening to us right now. And I think that it’s really important to recognize that this is like a time of trauma. Whether we feel that we’re being hit by this harder than others, whether we’re on the front lines or we’re not, everyone is being effected by this trauma. Like our lives are changing. There is a ton of unknown. There is death and sickness around us constantly. So this is a time of trauma and chronic trauma that our bodies are reacting to whether we have it in our front and our conscious mind or whether it’s in our subconscious mind.
Don Mamone (04:45):
So let me ask you one of the things I take away from that is when something is generally accepted as the new norm or it’s like ubiquitous, it’s sort of allows us to deflect that that’s just normal when in actuality it’s really not. If you’re, if you’re suffering from this chronic trauma, you have to accept that you’re dealing with it, that it exists, that it’s not normal and then sit with it. Is that fair?
Ayelet Shipley (05:07):
Yeah. I mean there are things that we can do to help our bodies deal with the chronic trauma that’s going on right now, such as sitting with it. Like that is a tool to do. But you have to like physically be where you are and to understand that this is what we are going through. And just because it’s happening to everyone does not mean it’s normal. Like this is not normal. What like sitting in my house all day. That’s not normal. Like dealing with all of this bad news where we see hundreds of things a day, not normal. And it doesn’t mean that it’s, it’s okay like just because it’s going on is it’s not okay, but we have to still deal with it and people are not wanting to.
Don Mamone (05:51):
So if you, if you had to say it’s not normal, we have to deal with it. What would be your best recommendation folks that are watching and guys, if this is resonating with you, give us thumbs up some hearts because I want to know on a guide this conversation based on what you’re doing what you’re dealing with. Would it be safe then to say that we have to deal with it? How like sitting with it means that you have to voluntarily put yourself into an uncomfortable space. And we talked about this briefly when we prepared for this. That’s really hard for people to do. It’s really easy for them to deflect and, and try to remain productive, distract their minds. What’s the best way to sit with this and truly start dealing.
Ayelet Shipley (06:29):
Yeah. So a lot of that comes from naming emotions that are going on. If you’re able to name something then we are able to recognize it. And that comes from dealing and understanding your emotions. And that’s the really hard part is, is like what you said, sitting with it. I said to you just a few minutes ago that I have a therapist and I’ve been working with her for, as a therapist. I have a therapist and I’ve been working with her for over a year and a half now. I think we’re like going on two years and last week was the first time I cried in front of her in therapy. And it’s because I have a really hard time sitting with uncomfortable emotions with someone else. It’s I have no problem sharing my emotions and in naming them, but feeling them for me is a different story. Mmm. And so there’s one, it starts with naming and I’ve been doing naming for a year and a half, like we’re more, but then sitting with it was a different thing and sitting with it in front of someone else to not have that just fully on me. It’s it. So it, it bubbles up inside of you and then it, it can come pouring out. And if we’re able to do this little steps at a time where we’re able to feel the uncomfortable emotions rather than it all bubbling up into a huge like depressive episode, it becomes easier to deal with over time. So it’s not just sitting inside of us what we’re not able to feel or name. And that is like a huge tool and being able to move forward.
Don Mamone (07:57):
Two things that I want to unpack there first is, so it’s basically like the proverbial steam valve release, right? If you let it keep building up, eventually, if you keep pushing it away, it’s going to explode and it’s going to explode much harder. And it’s to be harder to deal with in the collateral damage is going to be more than if you just try to sit and deal with it a little bit bites at a time. So that’s, that’s one thing that I am taking away from that next. And this is I think critical because we are in a place of basically social isolation or at least physical isolation, right? We’re zooming, we’re talking to people, we’re with our families. If we have families, which presents its own challenges sometimes because I’m at home with a three and a half year old, 24, seven, which I love her, but boy I tell ya so if we’re in these places of social isolation, right? And one of the key takeaways is to not retreat into yourself entirely. And if, if the steps, let’s say simplifying it is sit with it, name it, share it with yourself or understand it yourself and then share it with others. There’s a fear in me that people are gonna like really hideaway, they’re going to keep hiding it away because Hey, you know, I only haven’t had a chance to interact with people so briefly. So is there anything you can think to help encourage them and when they’re on their zoom call? Cause I, the word I hear in my head is vulnerability in a time. Like now people wanna be strong, they want to know, provide strength to others and they are worried about feeling or sounding vulnerable. So let’s talk about what do you recommend they do to be comfortable or more comfortable being on a call and being like, you know, truly real and truly emotional and accepting them.
Ayelet Shipley (09:28):
Yeah. I want to start by saying that being vulnerable is, is really hard. Like it’s, it’s no easy task and it’s also because our brains, like they protect us. So our first instinct is to go into immediate protection. And when we have emotional exposure, it’s almost like our brains are tricking us and to be like, Oh, that’s bad. Because a lot of times we have vulnerability hangovers after we share. And when you…when it’s called flooding and therapy terms, when you’re sharing all this emotion, it’s pouring out of you, and pouring of you, all of a sudden you’ve shared so much that you feel exposed. And as human nature, we don’t want to feel exposed. We want to protect ourselves. So a huge thing is to start really slowly. And that might mean starting with someone you trust, like really fully trust or it might be someone outside of your immediate like family, like a therapist, someone that just doesn’t have that, those eyes like zoned into your life and have this judgment because it’s easier a lot of times to talk to someone who isn’t in that. And I find that a lot of the time, as much as I share with my family, like they’d been there for me through the start of like all of my mental health stuff that has gone on for the last decade. A lot of times it’s easier for me to talk to someone else. So I say start slowly, start with the right person and then you can open up more and more. And it feels less exposing and it feels more normal and like a part of your everyday cycle.
Don Mamone (11:09):
It’s funny because the minute we start talking about this I’m a, I’m a self, admittedly very emotional male. If we’re going to kind of sort of, I don’t believe gender is entirely binary. I feel like I’m a very effeminate in my emotional sense. And so I honestly don’t have any problem talking to Emily. Right? I will go to Emily and be like, say, it’s just been a really tough day. I feel these following things. I feel really discouraged. Yesterday I felt really productive at 10 not blah, blah. And I, I take unbelievable comfort in that. Right? And when I’ve talked to her about that, I’m like, are you okay with this? Because she’s obviously the person receiving it and she’s like, I love it because it allows me to feel like we’re strong for each other. Right? But there’s a lot of people that I think aren’t that way, that, that aren’t comfortable even with their spouse. And so I just want to put an exclamation point at the end of your sentence. If the spouse isn’t the right person for that, if the best friend isn’t the right person for that, please, please, please reach out to somebody else. Somebody that’s a mental health professional if you want, or maybe just somebody that you know in your inner or slightly outer circle and say, Hey, do you mind if we chat? Does it just take courage Ayelet or do you think there’s something else that will help push people to making that lead to expose themselves and be vulnerable?
Ayelet Shipley (12:22):
I think courage is a huge part of it and I think something else is your stakes. What is going to happen if I don’t share? Is this going to build up so much pressure over time that it eventually explodes? Like people have to think about what’s going to happen if they don’t start sharing. The outcomes are going to be worse than if you do share. And a lot of times like that’s kind of a crappy way to think about it. Like, it’s going to be worse if I don’t do this. But sometimes that’s what drives us to make moves to make progress, to, to share. Like, I mean, that’s what drives me. Like I hate sitting with negative emotions and sharing them and everything. And I, I don’t hate sharing them. I hate feeling them. But that’s because of my past experiences where I have allowed myself to build it up so much over time that when it happens, it’s so much to handle that I can’t handle it myself anymore. And if I had just like, this is a constant conversation I have with my therapist. If I had been sharing this stuff all along and sitting with like sharing my negative emotions then it wouldn’t have pressurized to explode. And it’s like a tough lesson I have to learn over time. But that’s just another example of how our past experiences like shape well, how we react. And so it’s a lot of time relearning and trying to experience new ways where it’s not as hard. But it doesn’t mean it’s not hard to do it because it’s really hard to share.
Don Mamone (13:57):
So next question relative to sort of this exact same scenario, right? We’ve been talking about looking in and how we can change our behaviors and deal with what we’re being faced with right now. What about somebody that we know might be struggling? Right? I often times think of somebody that’s, I don’t want to say teetering on the edge, but maybe it’s a little bit more of a fragile state that you can’t just go in guns blazing. I’m going to fix, I’m going to help. I want to, even if that’s your inclination, right? So can you give people recommendations? Let’s say they’re in a particularly strong place at a given time, or generally speaking, what’s the best way for them to reach out to someone else and say, would they say, I get the sense that you’re struggling? Would it be just, hi, how you doing? And let them open up and see if the flood Gates open. What’s the best way to reach out to others?
Ayelet Shipley (14:45):
Okay. So it’s just, it’s a fine balance between honesty and openness and questions. You can go in there and be like, Hey, this is so hard. Like I see that you might be going through something and I just want you to know I am here to talk. Like I, we’ll be here for you no matter what. Do you want to tell me? What’s, what’s happening? Like what are you thinking? What are you feeling right now? And if you go in with complete, just like questions and openness without judgment, without saying you, I have to fix you. Because obviously that’s our first instinct. We want to fix people. I don’t like to see any of my friends or family or relationships suffering ever. Like all I want to do is fix. But a lot of times what people need is, is a listening. Just listening to them, listening to them vent. My friend texted me last night and she was like having a super tough time. And she goes, I just need to vent right now. And she knows that she can come to me in this safe space where I’m not gonna give her advice because one time I gave her advice and she was like, I just need you to listen right now. Like you’re so right. Sometimes I forget the difference between clients and friends and with clients. I’m like all about listening and then with friends I’m like, I want to help you because like that’s just my instinct is the difference between my training and my very real life. And it’s fine to get the balance. And it’s just about listening and allowing them to expose however much they feel comfortable with and know that there will be more exposure over time as long as you react in a nonjudgmental, open way.
Don Mamone (16:20):
So first of all, thanks for pointing that out because I am the same way. You are, right. I always try to remind myself both in interpersonal experiences and even professional ones that there’s a difference between being emotional and instrumental. I’m an instrumental person. I’m a servant. And when somebody comes to me and is like, I’m thirsty, I will crawl across broken glass and fire to bring them a glass of water and the person might come to me and be like, I…You didn’t need to do that. I just wanted to tell you I was thirsty and I want you to say, boy, being thirsty sucks. Right? Yeah. So I have to remember that. And so what I took away from what you just said, which is just so poignant, is you basically, because it’s so about them and you’re reaching out to them, you have to make it about them and you have to be there in the way they want you to be there. Right. And so we oftentimes forget that and we go into sort of our helpful mode, which is great, but if that’s not what they want, then obviously you’re not considering your audience. And so that’s such good advice. It’s just to be there the way they need you to be there.
Ayelet Shipley (17:14):
Yeah. I’ve made that go. I was just going to say I’ve made that mistake a lot in helping clients is like, I put my stuff, our stuff like I see that I need you to like deal with this emotion and this emotion and process this. But like it does not revolve around you when someone is struggling, it revolves around them and meeting them where they’re at. And like that’s a first thing we learn in school. Like in social work. School is like meet the client or the friend or the person or whatever where they are at. And I think that is, it’s dealing with your own stuff to allow them to do that. But it’s what’s the most helpful?
Don Mamone (17:52):
It is so helpful. And I mean you can even break that down to like the delivery message, right? If somebody texts you, maybe you don’t pick up the phone and start like, I’m like, blah blah. Maybe just send a response and says I love you, I care about you right by text. Cause they clearly could have picked up the phone to call. So meeting them where they’re at is brilliant. Great advice. So let’s move on to the other two kinds of terms that we started talking about was, so we’ve talked about sort of living in a place of uncertainty and trauma and then it seems like some of the other words I’ve been hearing being thrown a lot in our industry, right? And guys, if this is, this is working with you and helping you please let us know is anxiety and depression. So just as best you can, and I know we don’t have a ton of time and those are probably huge terms, but sort of in a clinical space, anxiety and depression, what are they and how do we deal?
Ayelet Shipley (18:38):
Yeah, so, you know, anxiety and depression both have like the right, well, we see what we have as the DSM and that’s how we diagnose people. And I think it’s really hard because they say you have to fit all of these emotions to fit into a category of having a just an anxiety or depression disorder. So anxiety, racing heart chronic fear, chronic worry dizziness, change in sleep, change in eating, all of these things like, and you have to fit like a certain number. There’s so many more depression. Feelings of emptiness, feelings of chronic sadness lack of sleep or oversleeping, no eating, overeating, all of these things. But the interesting thing is there’s two sides to the spectrum in this like if you, I’m the type cause so I have depression and anxiety. I have both, but for me, anxiety, it like is my jaw tightening? Like I noticed it. So full disclosure, I woke up this morning, I’m just noticing my anxiety was like through the roof and I could say, don’t know why, but I do. Like my mom came in and was like, why do you think you’re really anxious this morning? And I was like, well, maybe it’s because I’m going Facebook live, but like we know that’s not it. It’s because of the times we’re in it and the uncertainty and all the uncertainty that’s running through my head. And I noticed like my physical body reacting to things as well as my heart racing. I didn’t sleep well last night. My jaw was really tight and like I’m biting my grinding my teeth. Like that is something I only do when I’m super anxious. Depression, for me it looks so different. It’s, I never eat, I sleep all the time. I don’t want to look at my computer to even watch TV. It’s just full emptiness. I say it’s like trying to grasp the size of a well when you’re falling deep into it and you just can’t seem to get out, you can’t grasp besides go to put yourself out. So that’s the thing. It looks so different for so many people that it’s often hard for us to recognize, especially until we’re like fully in it. But just because you experience it doesn’t mean you have a disorder. Don’t even love the word disorder. You may experience all of these things and it’s so real, but it doesn’t mean something’s wrong with you. I, I mean, I have chronic depression and chronic anxiety. Like I’ve gone through the stages of it for the last 10 years of my life on and off. whether I’m in therapy, whether I use the tools that I know how all of these things, Mmm. And it does, like I just know how to deal with it then like I know how to move through the process of it, but it doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with me. It doesn’t mean that it’s a sickness, but it’s so real.
Don Mamone (21:36):
So let me ask you, what I take away from that again is, and this is posed as sort of what I think, but also a question. So that leads me to think that if people haven’t gone through the process of being diagnosed or if they start listing that out, or if they web MD, God forbid looking up stuff online, right? Don’t go down, don’t go down that rabbit hole. But if they start to look at it and they think, well, I don’t have this or this or this or this, I only have this little bit of this, they might be inclined to be like, well, this doesn’t apply to me. Therefore, I’m just gonna push to the side and forget about it. But in actuality they may be dealing with anxiety. It just may not be to the level of which somebody would, consider it a an acute diagnosis. Right. So is that a fair statement? Okay. And then so basically there’s, there’s a spectrum on which we fall and in uncertain times with this chronic trauma, we’re all more likely to be prone to having some sort and the anxiety and depression. Is that fair?
Ayelet Shipley (22:33):
I think it’s, it’s unfair to say that we’re not, like, no one’s going to expect, like I think on some level, every single one of us, no matter if we accept it or not, whether we recognize it or not is experiencing it. Your body is going to react and manifest itself to what’s going on psychologically in the back of your mind or in the front. And it’s, it’s how it is.
Don Mamone (22:57):
So, okay, so let’s take that tact right. Right now it’s almost impossible to say that everybody in one way or another isn’t affected by the uncertain and traumatic times, isn’t feeling some sort of anxiety or depression. We talked about naming it, we talked about acknowledging it, sitting with it, sharing it with others, which is kind of an evolution. I’m confident that this doesn’t work the same way for everybody, but can you give us some ideas as we wrap up? These are some practical things you can pick from, right? Because for some people it may not be a good fit for them. Give us a broad list if you can of things. These are ways in which people can do the best they can to to combat this.
Ayelet Shipley (23:40):
Yeah, so I mean I go through this everyday. I’ll, I’ll try like a hundred different things to see what, what’s to work. One, something that really helps us changing your body chemistry. Like you want to do everything in your power to shift your body chemistry and that can be like ice cold showers. That can be like if you have like a little body of water outside, jumping in, that cold water, taking a cold shower, putting the ice cloth on your face, doing something to shift your body chemistry . Exercise, like putting your body into some mode to release all of like the adrenaline that’s pumping in your body. That’s another thing. Mmm. My like mindset shifts. Sometimes music works for people. Like it sounds so silly, but let a mood shift in changing your state. Like if you can change your state, that’s when things change. Breathing exercises, like one of, like the best thing that works for me is breathing exercises. So I breathe in for four, hold for six and out for seven. And I don’t know why it works. It slows down. I mean, it slows down my heart rate. It’s changing how I’m breathing. How I’m able to see things is that last night when I was lying in my bed, and my mind started going with anxiety. I started thinking about how I made my dinner. So it’s just like focusing on the small things where I can name things. I’m like, I could cook my salmon in the oven at 425 for 10 to 12 minutes. I cut my… Like just being able to step by step, start pointing out things in the room. I see this, I see this. It allows you to focus in on the present moment and that’s where anxiety shifts. Like if we are able to zone in on what’s going on right here and right now our brain isn’t thinking towards the what ifs, which is where all of the anxiety lives. The what if this happens. What if that happens in the futuristic thinking? And we are grounded in where we are right now. And that’s where all of the anxiety can shift, which is a lot harder at this time than others. But if we can just be right now, that’s the way to do it.
Don Mamone (25:45):
I love that because I think one of the things I’ve remembered from times when I’ve been in traumatic situations, oftentimes what I need the most is the thing that I’m wanting to do the least. Right? So I’ve noticed in the last few weeks a lot of what I’m doing, the productivity that I’m dedicating my efforts towards had been great. There’ll be a day when I’m like, I just feel like I’m just not gonna do anything and I’ll sit in that for awhile and then I’ll know I’ll listen to my body and my body will be telling me like, you need to do something. But it’s amazing because the thing I want to do least is to do that. But if I just listen, right, and I grabbed Emily and Frankie and I go, come on, let’s just go for a nice active walk and we’ll go for a couple of mile walk. When I get back, I feel so much better. But it’s remarkable. Like you’re, if you listen to your body and actually do what it’s telling you, you’ll probably feel a lot better. And this idea is that changing your body chemistry isn’t something that I thought of. Like it’s like taking a shower you know, ice cold cloths, things like that. I’ll bet that does shift things for you. And as you’re saying, because it’s just literally a chemical difference.
Ayelet Shipley (26:50):
It is a chemical difference and that’s what’s going on in your body is a chemical change when you have anxiety. So change it.
Don Mamone (26:56):
Right? Awesome. So as I thought we went longer than I had originally thought, but I wasn’t, I’m not sad about that because I think all of this is such great information you’ve provided your education, your experience and context. So here’s how I wanna wrap it up because the end of this talk has been about the tools that we need in order to combat, I would say one of the most acute and traumatic times that we’ve all faced, right? All of a sudden certainty you are graciously and generously going to give the audience your toolbox to deal with these things, right? And first of all, thank you from the bottom of my heart for that cause I know that, that we’re all in, in trying times and the economic challenges are fraught by everybody, but you’re willing to give that to our audience so that they can find a better space right now. So, if you’re watching this video, here’s what you need to do. You need to comment in the thread on the video, wherever you’re watching it, whether it be YouTube or Facebook or Instagram. And what that’ll do is it’ll let me know that you want it. You also have to send me a message though with how we can deliver it to you. Okay, so posting the comment, will make sure that I know that, for example, who’s watching right now cause I love her so much, Barb Granados if you want this toolbox that Ayelet has created over years of experience and education, you just post a comment, I want this and then send me a direct message with your email or how you want me to deliver it and we’re going to make sure Ayelet’s information gets into your inbox. Okay. Here’s the other thing we talked about that’s really exciting. I know this isn’t going to end anytime soon. Even if it tapers off, even if things get better, there’s still an uncertain and new future out there. Ayelet has already committed to coming back another time and doing sort of a recap, checking in on folks and seeing how they’re doing. So, thank you. Ayelet, your time and talent is invaluable and I’m certain, I know I did. I know I did. I gained so much from this and you and I talk often, so I gained so much from this I’m certain the audience did as well. Uh’m going to leave it to you to wrap it up, give us a couple of last minute thoughts that you might have for people and then we’ll sign off.
Ayelet Shipley (29:02):
Yeah. So just to like say a few things, it is so okay. Like Don and I talked about this right before. It is so okay to listen to what you’re going through and to not be as productive as you feel you need to be and to allow yourself to be into self care in what’s going on. And as hard as that is for us sometimes because we want to make progress, of course we do. Some of the most beneficial things are learning to be where you are right now in order to move forward in the future. So listen to your bodies, listen to your heart is telling you. And if one day you don’t want to do something, don’t do it. One day you don’t want to work and you have the opportunity to not have to like listen to your bodies. Because our constantly, our bodies are manifesting what’s going on in our minds and we will see those physical reactions in this uncertain time and we want to be as healthy as we can that when we come through this, no matter what the future holds, we can be healthy because that is the most important thing. Mental health, physical health, it goes together and people don’t always recognize that. So I think that’s super important. I’m here to talk, you can reach out to me. PM me, whatever you need. I am here to chat, so
Don Mamone (30:26):
Thank you Ayelet. So thank you guys for joining us for the People First Then Profit Facebook live event a genuine and heartfelt thank you again, to Ayelet for your time, your talent, your education, your experience. If you guys want to follow along with Ayelet she’s tagged in all of my posts about today’s interview. I’m going to share her resources with those of you that want it. I’m also going to post links to her podcast, which is called get out of bed out of my head. And she’s phenomenal. She’s sharing so much with all of us and we appreciate her. So you guys have a wonderful day, to Ayelet’s point. Listen to yourselves. Listen to your bodies. Let’s hope today is a better day than yesterday, and every day is a better day than the day before. I I can’t wait to do this again. Ayelet thank you again. I really very much appreciate it. You guys have a great day!

April 22, 2020


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